Lorne Brown:
By listening to the Conscious Fertility Podcast, you agree to not use this podcast as medical advice to treat any medical condition in either yourself or others. Consult your own physician or healthcare provider for any medical issues that you may be having. This entire disclaimer also applies to any guest or contributors to the podcast. Welcome to Conscious Fertility, the show that listens to all of your fertility questions so that you can move from fear and suffering to peace of mind and joy. My name is Lorne Brown. I’m a doctor of traditional Chinese medicine and a clinical hypnotherapist. I’m on a mission to explore all the paths to peak fertility and joyful living. It’s time to learn how to be and receive so that you can create life on purpose.
Alright, welcome to the Conscious Fertility Podcast. Today’s episode features two visionary women at the forefront of women’s health innovation. Leading the conversation is Ronya Rubinstein, CEO and co-founder of Endo Spott, a breakthrough health tech company on a mission to change how we understand and treat endometriosis. With a background in law, public health and clinical trials, Ronya brings over 15 years of experience navigating the complex world of healthcare systems, regulation and innovation. She’s a passion advocate for closing the massive gaps in women’s health in creating real effective solutions for the millions suffering from endometriosis. And joining her today also is Dr. Sali Tzaban, a highly experienced individual who holds the title of co-founder and CTO at Endo Spot and CoLab Square. Sali has a background in biotech pharmaceutical development and has previously worked at companies such as MeMed diagnosis, enzyme Motech and Pros, Biotherapeutics in various roles. Sly also has experience in managing mammalian cell culture facilities and she’s also conducted research fellowships at the Children’s Hospital. Harvard Medical School, Sali holds a PhD from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem in the Department of Molecular Biology. Together Ronya and Sali are here to raise awareness about endometriosis, share what’s broken, the current treatment landscape, and introduce a bold and I think innovative solution that could transform the lives of millions of women worldwide. Ronya and Sali, welcome to the Conscious Fertility Podcast.

Ronya Rubinstein:
Thank you Lorne. We’re very happy to be here.

Lorne Brown:
I would like to start with if you can kind of just share how we define endometriosis, because for some people they may be new to that term.

Salit Tzaban:
Hi, nice being here and thank you for having us. So endometriosis is a disease is a condition in which utero cells lining the peritoneal cavity, forming lesions that respond to bone with extreme pain. So the endometriosis patient usually suffers from pain during her this time of the month, but not only during her period, also sometimes during other times of the month as well as long as her hormones or cycle is high. So what we see is that there is a lot of pain, a lot of confusion, and the main problem is that there is no definite cure today, but also not a definite diagnosis.

Lorne Brown:
I’m curious what got you both into wanting to do something like endo spot. And so there must be a backstory here. What’s your backstory? And if you can share also some of the weird symptoms that are often aren’t considered by endometriosis but can be.

Ronya Rubinstein:
So I will start because I sometimes say that I’m part of the problem. I have no symptoms. I’ve been in, as you mentioned, in the world of healthcare and in new technologies in medical care for quite a few years. And it didn’t occur to me that there were differences between men and women. There are men, there are women, but I didn’t understand the depth of the differences. And when suddenly I realized it, I said this is something I want to do. I want to apply my knowledge to improve women’s health. And I studied women’s health, endometriosis was like, what? How can this be true? How can so many women suffer from, as you said, so many different symptoms and it has a name, but they don’t even know that they have. So I talked to a friend who’s a gastroenterologist and I asked her, do you know anything about endometriosis? And she said, well, I’m sending about 10 women that come to me a month. And I tell them, go check if you have endometriosis because they don’t look to me like they have a Crohn disease or something, even though that’s the symptoms that they describe.

Lorne Brown:
I want to clarify that. So the GI doc, the gastro doc is sending them for endometriosis workup because they come in with gut health issues, but the gut expert says it’s not related directly to the gut. She thinks it’s endometriosis related.

Ronya Rubinstein:
Yeah, she talks to them a little bit more. Right. The thing about endometriosis I’ve seen is that the physicians that talk to the women a little bit more and ask them, is this periodical okay, do you have it all the time on any part of the time? It’s connected to your menstrual cycle. Some women don’t even know that it’s connected to the menstrual cycle. They’re suffering from different pains and they don’t connect it necessarily that it’s on their menstrual cycle or where they’re ovulating or something. The women themselves don’t necessarily connect all the symptoms that they feeling to what’s going on. So they don’t even tell the doctor about them. So they come to the GI and tell them, I’m suffering from gut symptoms as you are saying, and they don’t even connect it. So the GI treats them like gi, right? And they come to another doctor and they say, I have this pain in my leg, right? Sometimes it affects the CISA nerve and they say, I have this pain, suddenly I can’t walk. And then it goes away. And that’s what they tell. And they get treated for things that are not connected to endometriosis because they don’t describe that it’s connected to a menstrual cycle. They’re even realizing if they’re not asked about it, nobody connects the dots and this is a big deal,

Lorne Brown:
This is why there’s a delay to diagnosis. A small tangent, Sali and Ronya. What are some of the symptoms that people don’t know are so obvious? So the obvious ones are, oh, I have extreme menstrual pain, right? So there’s obvious there you shared there’s some digestive stuff so people can have things that mimic Crohn’s colitis or irritable bowel syndrome, pain with defecation with bowel movements. From the research that you’ve been doing and learning about endometriosis, then what are some of the other symptoms that you’re like, wow, I wouldn’t have known that was connected to endometriosis? Because some of our listeners may be experiencing these symptoms and start to connect the dots so they can advocate for themselves.

Salit Tzaban:
It can start with headaches or migraines. They can feel sick, just very weak, not even having some kind of a pain anywhere. And that can be anything. And I can tell you, you asked for the story, so let me connect the two things. When Ronia first approached me with the idea of doing something about endometriosis, I kind of ashamed to say that I didn’t even know the world there. I didn’t hear about it. And when we started together to learn about it, that was about two years ago, I suddenly realized and I called my sister and I asked her all the pains that you have and all the doctors that you go to, she went through GI as Ronya mentioned, and she had back aches. So she went to the orthoped and she had all kind of different symptoms that were not connected to each other. And I told her, you should go to your OB GYN and ask her about endometriosis. And she did that. She went to the doctor and the doctor told her it could be endometriosis, but it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter because I have nothing to give you. And she asked, okay, so you say that I have endometriosis or I don’t have endometriosis. And the physician kept saying, it doesn’t matter if you have or don’t have endometriosis, it doesn’t matter what it is if I can’t treat you.

Lorne Brown:
Yeah. And I mean there are some treatments to try and manage the symptoms. So sometimes they’ll give anti-inflammatories which can wreak havoc on the guts and what they’re doing. And I think from my background, Chinese medicine, there’s an idea of always go after the root cause, don’t just chase symptoms, you treat both, but you really go to the root cause and then there’s surgery and we’re going to learn about your very precise spot of addressing that as well. Then you can help, I don’t know if you can cure endometriosis, get rid of it necessarily, but you can. I mean I’ve seen it. I’ve seen people not need surgery. I’ve seen people become asymptomatic. I’ve seen people go on to have no more pain clotting their cycles or gut issues and go on to conceive what are you guys doing differently than what are you bringing to the medical field? I’m really curious to learn about spot.

Salit Tzaban:
So as you mentioned, because it’s hormonal condition, changing the levels of estrogen or the level of hormones actually helps. So if you take the pill or ine, it helps for some of the women of course until they want to conceive. But it means that the root cause that you mentioned is actually in the hormonal cycle. And what we want to do is to go with it and treat the hormonal cycle, but we don’t want all the side effects that you mentioned because we work with the patients and we come from the patients and what the patients say is we want to be healthy or healthier. We don’t want the pain, but we don’t want to go through menopause as well. And we tried to find a way that we can treat the hormonal levels without putting the woman into menopause and without all side effects. And the idea is to give them locally and not systemically a drug that will reduce the levels of estrogen in the peritoneal cavity, not through the circulation. So it won’t stop the estrogenic cycle all over the body, only in the peritoneal cavity and it’ll stay there for a few months. So you don’t have to worry about what am I going to do in my next menstrual cycle.

Lorne Brown:
So this is all new to me everybody. So I got questions here. I’m really curious. So as you mentioned, when you do it systemically, which is birth control pill or taking a drug to put you into menopause like Lupron, you get that low estrogen everywhere. So affects skin, confect mood, those that are listening or perimenopausal menopause, the dementia symptoms, brain fog because estrogen affects all of our tissue. So what you’re saying is you’re lowering this estrogen because estrogen causes the tissue to grow, but you you’re able to isolate it to the perinatal cavity. Does it get to the uterus then too? Or just outside the uterus? Is the uterus involved?

Ronya Rubinstein:
So what we are trying to do is reach only the peritoneal cavity. As you mentioned, we have women, right? We have estrogen receptors all over the body and putting us into menopause, catastrophic, it’s such a bad solution. And the trade-off of suffering from the endometriosis pain or suffering from menopause is inconceivable. And especially thinking that if you’re not treated, then this disease only gets worse. It gets exacerbated over time. And as you mentioned, a lot of the women that are undergoing in infertility treatments have endometriosis. My own daughter, after I started saying the word, I realized that she has endometriosis also. I sent her to ask the gynecologist as she got diagnosed and the issue of is she on a one-way track? Infertility is a big issue that is on my mind. It’s really worrying you think what are the treatments, how it will affect her long-term, where would she be? Is she going to maintain her fertility? So the way we looked at it is that we only want to reach the lesions, 80% of them are in the peritoneal cavity. So we may not have a solution for 100%, but 80% during the peritoneal cavity and we only want to reach them. There’s nothing else there by the way that reacts to estrogen. It’s only only the lesion. That’s why it’s such a problem.

Lorne Brown:
So because where you’re targeting it and you said 80% Sarah, so for example, some people get monthly nosebleeds because of some tissues got lodged in the nose, right? What about those with pain with bowel movements? Will it affect the, because a lot of imaging, osis, I know when they try to do surgery, they can’t do often the adhesions or the endometriosis on the bowel. Will this help with that as well? Or is it isolated from that too?

Salit Tzaban:
It’ll definitely help that. Everything that faces the peritoneal cavity, which means that it’s the membrane lining, all the different organs, the bladder, the gut, the liver and so on, that all will be treated with what we are suggesting here.

Lorne Brown:
Alright, I got to share a tangent here and we’re going to go more into this, but in my practice I use low level laser therapy, low level meaning it doesn’t cut or burn. It’s not used for sculpting, removing hair, low level laser therapy, tissue regeneration. Actually, and I learned this from a few docs years ago. One was Fred Kahn who’s a vascular surgeon. He’s passed now out of Toronto, Canada. And the other one talking to Roberta Chao, she’s a medical doctor, acupuncturist and trained laser therapy. I went to visit her in her clinic in Australia and she was using it and where it connects here is she was putting photons as many as she can into the pelvic bowl because this low level laser therapy helps regulate inflammation and certain immune factors and what she saw clinically, and there’s research have come out since their pain goes away and a lot of them who were not able to conceive went on to conceive, I’m just tying the dots here. Connecting the dots is you’re targeting this area and if you have a bunch of inflammation, then you’re creating a whole unwanted immune response in that area. You’re trying for the fertility, trying to grow every month to mature these follicles which contain eggs. And we don’t want an overactive immune system that can damage egg quality or can interfere with implantation. How is it received by the patient? Is it a surgical procedure, is it an injection? And how does it only know to go to that area of the body?

Ronya Rubinstein:
So first of all, I have to say we are still at an RD stage, so we still have some path to go forward before we be able to treat with our product. So first, you’re right, we need to get there. It’s a simple administration. We talk to a lot of doctors about how to get specifically to the peritoneal cavity. They say our challenge is treating the lesions, we don’t know how to treat them. Getting to the peritoneal cavity is not a challenge. It is a procedure in a clinic. It’s not something a woman does at home. It’s not a per o tablet that she’s taking. It is a procedure that you will have to go and have once every three months, 15 minutes in the clinic, maybe nothing more than that. And the r and d, the ingenuity of what we are doing is the ability to engineer the product so that it stays only in the peritoneal cavity and doesn’t distribute from there to the rest of the body. It stays only there and the effective drug is being released at a very continuous low rate over this period so that there’s a continuous inhibition of the lesion so that they are not active, they’re not inflammatory, they don’t do anything, and the rest of the body just goes on as usual. There’s a menstrual cycle. There’s estrogen goes up, estrogen goes down, progesterone goes up, everything goes on as normal, but the tonal cavity is quiet.

Lorne Brown:
And I want to say I’m excited here. I always have guest on, we’re talking about what they’re doing. It’s really cool to have two women scientists, I’ll call you in the innovative stage. You heard it here first, right? I love this. So what is the thought process then that it’s able to shut down the growth of the lesion? Is it blocking it from receiving? Is it blocking an estrogen receptor in the abdominal cavity or how are you doing this?

Salit Tzaban:
The main difference between endometrial lesion and endometrial tissue is the ability to synthesize their own estrogen. Estrogen receptors are all over specifically in the endometrial tissue. There are a lot of androgen estrogen receptors, but they cannot synthesize them on estrogen what the lesions can. So we are targeting that pathway and this is specific for the lesions and that’s how we can do that in the peritoneal cavity and not do it in the uterus.

Lorne Brown:
I’m just curious more about your story. I’m always curious when people come together like you two to solve a problem usually, but not always, but usually they have a personal story that has inspired or motivated them. They don’t want other people to struggle like they have. So why endometriosis? What was your life event or families that you know of that made you think, we got to fix this. This isn’t fair. You have a personal experience that you’re willing to share.

Ronya Rubinstein:
So I started saying that I looked into endometriosis without a person of story, and then I was invited to join a study around endometriosis that monitored symptoms with women, which we recruited over social media. And the person that run it became a very close personal friend Vic. She’s an endometriosis patient herself more than 10 years until she was diagnosed with a lot of symptoms. I learned more about endometriosis through her life and she’s a brilliant postdoc in chemistry and used her algorithms from Berg Quantum Chemistry to understand women, how do we connect the different symptoms to endometriosis and how to manage the disease. And as I sort of mentioned it as we were talking and getting into endometriosis, and I looked into my daughter and I said, I’m seeing her suffering every month for menstrual pains every month. And I see her sin of thin cities that she has.
I see her migraines, I see all sort of things that I never connected the dots, and suddenly I have this data in front of me that connects the dots and says all these things are connected and all of them are endometriosis. And this was like go to your gynecologist and say maybe this is endometriosis. And she was diagnosed with endometriosis following that, not before. Nobody connected the dots. And so I have my daughter and then suddenly when I started talking endometriosis, it’s amazing the number of women around me that say I have endometriosis, I just didn’t know it. My niece that was diagnosed, my sister-in-law that was never diagnosed everywhere around we are one out of 10, not we, but one out of 10 women or maybe even more have endometriosis. So all of us, no women with endometriosis, right? All of us.

Lorne Brown:
No, it reminds me then just for the diagnosis part, it used to be, so you guys know your symptoms now like, oh my God, I have these symptoms, I should get investigated. It used to be laparoscopic surgery was the definitive diagnosis. There are some blood tests now that they’re starting to use. It hasn’t been accepted as mainstream. How we diagnose imaging has gotten so good imaging that they’re starting to be able to diagnose through imaging. So it’s becoming noninvasive, but currently it’s still laparoscopic. Surgery is definitive and a lot of dogs don’t want to do laparoscopic surgery for the definitive. So if you have all these symptoms, they kind of say you probably have endometriosis. I want to get back to the fertility aspect, the women with endometriosis on the fertility journey. So the current medical treatment, you can’t conceive while you’re on it because it shuts down. Your ovaries are shut down, there’s no estrogen. They’re shutting it down as much as possible. Am I to understand when you said you’re still having your highs and lows of estrogen, progesterone, so are these women still cycling while they’re doing your treatment? Which they come in right now, it looks like the treatment would be every three months.

Salit Tzaban:
Let’s just put a disclosure on it. We are not in clinical trials yet.

Lorne Brown:
Yes. So this hasn’t happened yet. So that gives me another thought. I think by the end, I would like to know what kind of investments that you guys, if people want to get involved in this. So this is the early stages. So the idea behind this treatment, so thanks Ali for this. You’re not in the human clinical trials yet. The idea behind this is going to target rather than a blanket lower the estrogen throughout the body. It’s just going to affect it in the perineum, in the pelvic area. And these women will still cycle. So they’re not going through night sweats, hot flashes, insomnia, irritability. And we know sometimes when women are doing IVF and they’re using Lupron for two, three months, it’s suppressing them. We’re not sure how much that can impact egg quality. But we also know some of these women, especially when they’re older in their later thirties or forties, it’s easy to oversuppress them. So when they do the IVF, they don’t respond because we’ve suppressed the ovaries. This is where I’m thinking how important your research is. So everybody benefits from not having to suffer from all these symptoms and those trying to conceive can still be optimizing their egg quality, uterine receptivity possibly and not get over suppressed. So when they go try to conceive, they’re not at the effect of it.

Salit Tzaban:
Exactly. That’s the main idea. It yet to be

Lorne Brown:
Proven,

Salit Tzaban:
But that’s what we want to achieve.

Lorne Brown:
Okay,

Ronya Rubinstein:
I love it. This was the critical, when we set out what do we want to do, what are we aiming to do, what are we going to test and work for? This was one of the main things that we said that we don’t want any harm to the ovaries that was at the top of what are we aiming for? That was one of the things. Okay, so we don’t want, as you said, we don’t want all the side effects and we want to protect the

Lorne Brown:
Ovaries. Have you guys done research on animal studies like the rodents? Have they been involved yet?

Salit Tzaban:
Yep. We’ve done some rodent studies. So for naive rodent studies to see that what we are injecting into the pelvic space stays there and doesn’t go into the blood circulation. It doesn’t penetrate into the blood circulation to make sure that what we are looking at is not a blanket, as you described it, treatment, but local treatment. And we have really nice results there and are in the middle of another study. And hopefully we’ll, well, once we get the investment that you described, we’ll go into the model of endometriosis, which is another, we can do a whole different podcast about how do you research endo materials because that’s different and very, very hard apparently. But yes, and that’s where we want to go.

Lorne Brown:
So there’s a lot of women that are going to need this. Can people invest, by the way, is that an opportunity for institutional organizations, individuals? Is there an investment opportunity?

Ronya Rubinstein:
Absolutely. Very good.

Lorne Brown:
And then how do people find you guys? Where’s the best place to go so they can learn about your research and start to have that conversation about they’re interested in investing in what you guys are doing?

Ronya Rubinstein:
So we have a LinkedIn page, parent Topo. As we said, we are still at our r and d stage, so a lot of our results are still confidential and so we didn’t put it on a website and everything. We’re still working with them and building on them and we’d be happy to have any conversation and tell more about the insights and why we think we can achieve what we just told you.

Lorne Brown:
And when you go to human trials, if you haven’t thought of it, I’m just thinking those that are in the IVF world too, there may be multiple centered clinics that may be want to get involved. I’ll put in the show notes, the LinkedIn page. Then for Endo, any other places, social media, any other things, we’ll put the LinkedIn link. But if you can think of right now, anything else? So I’ll know to get those links and put in the show notes.

Ronya Rubinstein:
LinkedIn, right now it’s

Lorne Brown:
LinkedIn. For now it’s LinkedIn. I don’t know when people are listening to this. So we’re recording this and our real time now, but somebody could be listening to this and it’s five years later, keep checking out Endo spot and because it may be a treatment that’s available by the time somebody is listening to this as well. So I want to remind that Ronya and Sali, anything you want to add, any closing remarks that I might not have asked that you think is important to share with our listeners or closing remarks in general?

Ronya Rubinstein:
I’ll just say one more thing about diagnosis because we just touched on it a little bit. So if people do go and listen to the two podcasts that you just mentioned, one thing that will rise to their attention is that both of them interview women. It’s not a five minute session. They interview women for a bit longer to understand the cycle of symptoms. And even if they don’t want to have a laparoscopic golden standard diagnosis, they diagnose clinically, right? They’re expert and they diagnose clinically, they talk to people, they listen. And there are plenty of endometriosis experts that do exactly that.

Lorne Brown:
And again, because endometriosis, I think what we offer is key diet, lifestyle, stress reduction. We add the acupuncture herbs, but we want the definitive diagnosis and often more western treatment is required too. For some of these people. There’s no need to suffer. It’s not right when they dismiss you or just say when they say it’s normal, just here’s my advice to our listeners. Normal doesn’t mean healthy. Normal means a lot of people experience it and they don’t think you’re going to die from it. That’s why they call it normal. But normal doesn’t mean healthy. So if somebody says it’s normal, severe PMS, menstrual pain, all these symptoms, that just means we see a lot of it. But that doesn’t mean you have to live with that. I think that’s the message both of you are sharing as well.

Salit Tzaban:
I want to add something else about awareness and I think that we look at it as a gynecological problem, but it’s not. And I think that if physicians will be aware of that problem, not only gynecologists but also other physicians and treat it as a whole body issue and that actually correspond with what you suggested, then I think it will be much better for everyone, for the patients and for the physicians to treat them. If they can look at it as a condition, not a healthy condition, but a condition that should be treated holistic

Lorne Brown:
Holistically, yeah, al body

Salit Tzaban:
And not as a gynecological problem, I think it’ll be much better for everyone.

Lorne Brown:
I agree with you, and it’s kind of like Ronya, when she had shared that the GI doctor, they’re the ones that was not a gynecological issue. The person was having bowel issues, but it was related to endometriosis. So it is a whole body approach, which is why symptoms can appear throughout the body, not just with menstrual pain.

Salit Tzaban:
Exactly.

Lorne Brown:
There are a lot of women that don’t actually have the menstrual pain, but they have all these other symptoms bleeding rectally from around their period. Pain with defecation, with the bowel movement. We talked about crazy urinary symptoms, mood changes, skin changes. It’s a hormonal issue and it depends where these tissues implant can create symptoms and then it just creates a chronic systemic inflammatory response and immune response in the body, which then can create a lot of symptoms. So you don’t chase the symptoms. You got to get to an underlying cause. So if you’re having a variety of symptoms, please do seek out your healthcare provider. And like you guys shared, if it’s a 32nd interview or call, it’s probably not the right physician because to really get an idea, somebody has to spend time and do a real history on you, not just your menstrual history, but a full history.

Salit Tzaban:
Exactly.

Lorne Brown:
Yeah. I want to share a few extra resources again that I mentioned earlier. One is our podcast, episode 79, specifically about endometriosis and then by Dr. Iris, Karen Orach, and then episode 1 0 5 by Peter Wright, Dr. Peter Wright, the O-B-J-Y-N, episode 1 0 5. And then on the Accu Balance website, there’s a nice resource we’ve created for you called our top 10 endometriosis treatment Strategies when you guys are available to market, I’ll put that as the top 11 endometriosis treatment strategies. Right now it’s 10 and it talks about acupuncture, low level laser therapy, neuropathy. It talks about surgery and just gives you a bunch of resources, a free diet so people can find about an anti-inflammatory diet. It’s still holistic approach. So if your research comes to fruition and it gets out there, there’s nothing that can beat the pillars of life. Everybody. Movement, diet, relationships, stress reduction, that’s the pillar of life.
And then we add things like acupuncture or herbal medicine and medical treatments like Endo spot hopefully. So there are things just to help. Sometimes we need extra help and just that more holistic to get even better results and relief. So I’m a big fan of a holistic integrative approach. So that’s what that resource is on Acubalance. Just search the top 10 endometriosis treatment strategy. You’ll find that. All right. I want to thank Roya Rubenstein and Dr. Sali bin for being here today. It’s endo spot. We’ve put that in the show notes. We’ve put their LinkedIn link in the show notes. I’ll also put those three links to the two podcast episodes on endometriosis and the blog we have on our clinic. I want to thank you both very much for joining me today and for your innovation. I hope you persevere and I hope you make a lot of people rich because they invest in you and they’re only rich because it worked. You helped relieve a lot of symptoms related to endometriosis.

Ronya Rubinstein:
That’s it. Yeah. Thank you much. That’s what you’re planning to do. Much. Thank you very much.

Speaker:
If you’re looking for support to grow your family, contact Acubalance Wellness Center at Lorne Brown (30:48):Acubalance. They help you reach your peak fertility potential through their integrative approach using low level laser therapy for fertility, acupuncture, and naturopathic medicine. Download the Acubalance Fertility Diet and Dr. Brown’s video for mastering manifestation and clearing subconscious blocks. Go to Acubalance.ca. That’s a C balance ca.

Lorne Brown:
Thank you so much for tuning into another episode of Conscious Fertility, the show that helps you receive life on purpose. Please take a moment to subscribe to the show and join the community of women and men on their path to peak fertility and choosing to live consciously on purpose. I would love to continue this conversation with you, so please direct message me on Instagram at Lorne Brown official. That’s Instagram, Lorne Brown official, or you can visit my websites, Lorne brown.com and Acubalance.ca. Until the next episode, stay curious and for a few moments, bring your awareness to your heart center and breathe.